Wednesday, November 14, 2007

Bandog Opinion by Chello (Speciality Schutzhund, Predominant exp. in AB's, GSD, mals)

"I don't think a bandog owner would say "we know they can do sport", because hello, 'sport' is designed for herders and isn't something bandogs excel at..."

I will disagree with your statement...

...herders were never initially created for anything other then herding.

...herders excelled at Sch., Ring, etc. because they were worked, and systematically bred to produce the specimens that can work.

...herders are not crazy and the ones that are and can't relax I will suggest are neurotic.

I think the greatest influence in bandog’s not being worked, similar to your neo's, old english mastiff, or other mastiff breeds downfall is the failure of their owners and breeders. No one else left to blame.

"Kadi; bandogs don't excel at sport."

Let's face it...

...if you were a picking a team would you choose people who were excited and competitive, with experience or would you choose people who failed before you even competed?

...I first went on Bandog Banter first and fore most because I liked the concept of Bandog’s and being an American Bulldog owner I too was snowed into believing the concept that American Bulldogs and Bandog’s were created to work...I mean that's what their written standards show.

The truth is the majority (and I'm being conservative's likely higher then the majority) of the breeders of AB’s and of Bandog breeders don't breed working dogs.

Especially Bandog’s...a mix bred dog chosen and produced from two breeds of dogs for (utilitarian) work.

Let's look at the facts: the dogs used...

Mastiffs - Not utilitarian dogs X Pitbull’s - soft to biting people usually bred against man work.

Where does utilitarian come in either of these two mixes? Then they go on to lay claims, without proof.

Well as I learned and understood more about working dogs...I found the same owners and breeders who "claimed" to be producing working dogs were not.

What they were producing were aesthetically appealing dogs, weak in nerves and useless utilitarian dogs.

Aesthetically appealing dogs who's sum of the total, is weaker then the individual dogs that were used to create it.

If Bandog and Mastiff breeders were serious in producing dogs for work ie. SchH, Ring or any of the globally recognized programs, from their own stock, with consistency and not "one offs"....they'd produce proof and not hype.



Originally posted on Longwoods Working Dog Message Board

Bandog Opinion by Jeff Oehlsen (Speciality: Mondio Ring, Predominant exp. in Rottweilers and Malinois)

Quote: "because hello, 'sport' is designed for herders and isn't something bandog's excel at..."

This statement is pretty much the heart of any argument against these types of dogs.

I am not stirring the pot, but just pointing out some basics.

The mentality of bandog and mastiff types owners is for shit. I do not think that it takes some super herder to do "sport" AND in my experience, when a dog breaks down at the lower levels of "sport" there is a good chance that protecting you at home is out of the question. Luckily, most people are afraid of these dogs based on size alone.

Since I have seen these dogs work at some level, and think that I wouldn't mind seeing them get over that weird nerve, or even worse their high thresholds.

Plus, too many people spew out the word "sport" as if it was a bad thing.........and many of these people have dogs that couldn't do basic levels of these sports, and that is what makes it so bad.

When bandog and mastiff people can come up with their own version of a test, then maybe the rest of us "herder" people will at least listen. Until then, it is not going to be taken seriously.

The dogs I worked were started by someone else, and I did not agree with the training at all. There is too much macho shit going on with these dogs, and it is a shame, as there are a few I wished I could have been the one to put the foundation work on the dog.

There is a weird nerviness that I see with pit crosses that I feel comes from biting a human. It is not scaredy cat as much as it seems to be a "I am not supposed to be biting people" thing. Then they add in a lot of defense to counter their own insecurities and they get hectic dogs.

Thresholds are the other thing that are way to high. It is not that they do not have drive, just that their thresholds are too high to get past them. When bandog people figure out EXACTLY what you are looking for, and have definite breed goal (you might have them, just I do not know about them LOL ) Then I think you might have something interesting.

Originally posted on Longwoods Working Dog Club Message Board